| Author |
 Topic  |
| Information in this forum is not monitored or provided by a medical professional. The information reflects member opinions only. Do not act on advice from these forums without first consulting a qualified medical professional. All content is copyrighted and protected by Aelius Group. |
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2010 : 7:44:06 PM
|
I've been taking valium for a couple years now, mostly 2 10 mg per day but up to 4 10 mg per day a few months ago. I have been tapering to 1 10 mg per day over last few weeks. I have also been taking busporine (buspar) to help with anxiety from some romances gone bad (one with a woman I proposed to) and also from losing three jobs over the last two years. I have been out of work for over 6 months.
I have had chronic back pain for 20 years and am currently tapering off of suboxone / subutex after switching from opiates: oxy and hydro. I have had soma in the mix and am down to 1/2 per day from 6 per day, and hoping to nix it totally in a week or less. The soma seems to amplify other meds.
How concerned should I be tapering off the valium? Is 5 mg per week reasonable? Or is tapering by 5 mg every two weeks better. I plan to jump off of all the meds I am on in 3 to 4 weeks.
I might add that I am an alcholic who has not had a drink or a street drug in 20 years! I took the opiates as prescribed and also the valium as prescribed, but as an alcholic, these drugs are dangerous to me. Any help anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated!
Binky
|
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
Jana
Administrator
1549 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 06:58:08 AM
|
Hi Binky,
Your mind is in a good place now. You have done so well, and your current goals are clear. Being 199% free of drugs, for any purpose, feels so much better.
Generally, with the oldest methods, 2.0mg Valium per month is the best that we can do. With newer procedures, 3.0mg per month is doable. A few people can lost more in a month. So you can see that being 100% off Valium in two or three weeks isn't possible. Well you could do it, but you'd almost certainly be seriously unwell afterward.
While it's true that a taper is a very individual thing, a few weeks is beyond reason.
Here is a general guide that applies to anyone: Smaller dosage reductions made more often make a huge difference in difficulty as well as a far better post withdrawal experience. Making a major cut will take longer to recover from. This means that the taper will last far longer.
Spread your dosage reductions evenly over time. This may seem way out of place when a withdrawal from opiates and other drugs takes a couple of weeks. However, benzos are very different. They cause changes in the nervous systems that require a lot of time to reverse... a lot more time. That time can be made far longer by making only a few individual reductions of relatively large size in a short time.
Every body has an individual reduction that is can safely tolerate. That isn't changed by forcing a schedule. It takes what it takes.
Jana |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 09:12:58 AM
|
Hi Jana,
Wow, 2-3 mg per month reduction!? I had no idea. I have been in "mild misery" for the last few weeks in my subutex/soma/trammie/valium taper and I can't tell which drug is having the most adverse effect on me. Would the simultaneous taking of Buspar help the valium taper? After being on suboxone and subutex for 5 full months after a few years on opiates, initially from 16 mg to 8 to 4 to 2 to 1, I have reduced the subutex to .8 mg per day over the past week. I hope to go to .6 mg next week to .4 mg the week after and .2 mg the week after that while nixing the soma completely, oh, and the tramadol, and I was hoping to nix the valium too. Looks like I will have to stay on the valium during my WD from sub, not sure if that is wise .... I mean, is it wise to take valium during a subutex jump?? I must say, I am in mild misery in my taper. I wonder if going from 20 to 15 to 10 mg of V in a few weeks is the major culprit of my misery while reducing the soma (which seems to amplify everything) and reducing the sub and tramadol. I have been taking 10 mg V for a couple weeks from 15 mg for a couple weeks. Would it serve me best to go back up to 15 mg V for a month, then to 12.5 for a month, then 10 mg for a month, etc. even though I am going through a sub taper and jump in about 4 weeks?
Regaring the buspar, I cannot tell if it is working, its supposed to work in the background, but I just cannot tell. I only notice it when I take 30 mg of it, my arms tingle like pins and needles. I have backed down to 20 mg 3 x per day instead of 30 mg 2 x per day and that eliminated the pins and needles, but I just cannot tell if its working.
Oh, what about grapefruit juice? Sometimes I drink a big glass of it with a V because I know it will increase the effects. Is this safe, wise, helpful, hurtful in a taper or otherwise??
Thank you so much Jana for your help and concern.
All the best to you,
Binky |
Edited by - binky on 05/29/2010 09:15:54 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jana
Administrator
1549 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 6:29:51 PM
|
Hi Binky,
When discontinuing multiple drugs, it's one drug at a time. It's like having multiple variables that can interact with one another. So eliminating them individually is really the only safe way to do it.
Buspar has been a trouble-maker for benzo tapering. it sounds good on paper, but it hasn't worked out well. Since you already are on it, it doesn't seem wise to just stop it. However keeping the dose to the minimum is best.
There are general groups of benzo-dependents. There are benzo/psyche drug people, benzo/pain meds people. plain benzo people, and benzo-recreational drug people. It may seem odd, but the recreational people seldom become dependent. They are intermittent users. This doesn't cause the body to get used to the drug and so alter bodily processes. It is the taking as directed by a doctor that causes the heavy-duty problems.
Speaking of altered bodily processes, benzos markedly change the hypothalamus/ pituitary/ adrenal axis. This can cause conditions that appear to be some major diseases, but it's a false alarm though a painful false alarm.
Back to the psyche people, they usually must discontinue the benzo first. You are a pain-management person. It may be best to discontinue the pain meds first. Pain meds can be done far faster than benzos.
Opiates, benzos, and alcohol are called cross-dependent because all of them ultimately work to open the chloride channel in the GABA receptor. This means that all will ease the effects of excitatory neuro-transmiters. This may not sound like a major thing, but it can be huge. A down-regulated GABA system can feel like a major neurological disaster. Alcohol isn't your problem so we won;t talk about it here. Opiates and benzos don't seem to operate in exactly the same way although the ultimate effect is the same chloride channel opening effect. This may be a clue to why opiates can be stopped in a couple of weeks while benzos require months and sometimes years.
Don't be alarmed about the time. With a very individualized taper plan, the symptoms can be minimal or not there at all. The difference here is at what point the correct taper is begun. IF you already are in trouble, you won't be one of the "no symptoms at all people".
One thing to mention here is the use of addiction docs. They may be fine for opiates, but they know nothing about a humane benzo taper. I've heard some surprisingly incorrect talk from these addiction people. They confuse a down-regulated GABA system with addiction,. The two are VERY different issues. The addiction doc will say that tapering a bebzo just keeps it in the body longer and leads to failure. That may be true of many drugs but definitely not benzos. Benzos must be consistently tapered by very small amounts.
Personally, I am a DIY person. If I had had an opiate dependency, I'd use our opiate board to come off the drug in a week or so. It requires taking time to be in bed, taking BP, and managing symptoms, but there is a quick end to the physical dependency.
Benzos just are different. It is very dangerous to come off these with the usual large reductions. A C/T can mean long term harm or death. At BDR, we emphasize safety. We've seen the results of the usual internet and medical methods. We're very experienced in benzos, but not in the other drugs. We have to stay within these bounds, but the opiate people at ODR are very good.
Grapefruit has a sometimes mysterious reputation. It doesn't really interact with drugs. It inhibits the metabolic clearance of 70% of drugs( including most bemzos). So GFJ can cause drugs to accumulate in the body. This may result in toxic levels of those drugs.
Some foods and drugs cause the opposite effect. They will induce the enzymes. This means that a drug may leave the body too quickly. In the case of benzos, that can cause marked increases in symptom levels. Few people seem to have accounted for this when working on benzos, but the effect can be huge.
Jana
Jana |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2010 : 12:16:16 PM
|
Hi Jana,
WOW, thanks for taking the time to explain so much to me, I really appreciate it. Scary stuff those benzos ... Hmmm, one drug at a time, makes sense! So I'm gonna nix the soma first because of its synergistic effects. Also I will cut the buspar in half 10 mg 3 x per day. I am tapering off the trammies and staying level or slight reductions on the sub (I have gotten a lot of help from ODR on the opiates and sub.)
Some questions on the valium taper. Thanks, GFJ is a no no -- is it like taking more valium? I was at 20 mg/day a month ago for just over a year, with a couple months at 20 to 40 mg per day a few months ago. After reviewing my logs, I have been taking 10 mg per day only for the last two weeks after taking 15 mg per day for a week. So I went from 40 to 20 mg to 10 mg pretty quickly, over the course of a couple months. I feel like I should go up to 15 mg per day and then start tapering by 2.5 mg per MONTH. How does this sound? What do you suggest?
Thanks again Jana, I am very grateful for your help,
Binky |
Edited by - binky on 05/30/2010 12:21:30 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jana
Administrator
1549 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2010 : 12:51:22 AM
|
Hi Binky,
That sounds about right. A 2.5mg Valium reduction in a month is quite reasonable. I can tell you more when you are ready. Valium is what I used. I have a big log detailing doses, cuts, and mixing.
In general. making changes in steps is far less likely to upset the apple cart. So your opiate plan seems right.
In one way GFJ is similar to taking more Valium in that GFJ makes Valium stick around longer and so accumulate with regular dosing. These CYP 450 enzymes are to be respected. In general, we want a very slow and very even decline in benzo levels. The enzymes can alter that. So both inducers and inhibitors of these enzymes must be watched.
Our goal at BDR is to help you to find the taper rate and method that will cause the least possible withdrawal syndrome. You don't have to lie down and take a miserable taper.
Jana |
| Report to Moderator |
|
| Information in this forum is not monitored or provided by a medical professional. The information reflects member opinions only. Do not act on advice from these forums without first consulting a qualified medical professional. All content is copyrighted and protected by Aelius Group. |
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2010 : 10:20:06 AM
|
Hi Jana,
I have already started my taper, documenting it a month ago. Starting today, for this week my schedule is as follows:
sub .6 mg -- in early am
soma 0!!
tramadol 10 mg -- 5mg in am, 5 mg in pm
valium 15 mg -- 5 mg am, 5 mg early pm, 5 mg later pm (i do not use for sleep, use for muscle spasm and anxiety)
buspar 30 mg -- 10 mg in am, 10 mg early pm, 10 mg later pm (don't notice any benefit, just dropped from 60 mg)
lyrica 0!! (don't seems to notice any benefit except it makes me sleepy - was taking 100 mg nitely)
benadryl, valerian, melatonin -- late pm to help sleep
The drop in sub and nixing the soma will be huge for me this week and may make me even more uncomfortable in a couple days.
Because of my low back pain and gradual WD from sub, I go to the gym 5 to 6 days a week for about 2 hours a day. Seems to help strengthen my back and reduce the back pain and also help produce endorphins which the opiates killed. My sleep seems to get worse for every .2 mg I drop in sub. Down to 5 hours per nite which I suppose I cannot complain, because once I jump from sub, i will likely get only 2 hours a nite.
Please let me know if you think anything is out of whack, and I will let you know how I am doing.
Thank you,
Binky |
Edited by - binky on 05/31/2010 10:23:33 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jana
Administrator
1549 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 2:58:47 PM
|
Hi Binky,
I can't comment on the opiates. The Lyrica may seem to do nothing for you, but it just may be easing the Valium situation. With heavy-duty cutting, there can be left-over symptoms. Lyrica can modulate these. So you may actually need to continue Lyrica for a while although at a low dose.
There is a possible little glitch, but it may not be a big thing. I'll come back here when I get the information.
As far as I know the opiate reduction seems right.
Jana |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
kattklaws
Administrator
372 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 10:35:12 PM
|
Hi Binky,
First I wanted to congratulate you with all you are doing.
I came off opiates, soma and Xanax but in a detox center so they cold turkeyed me which was a HUGE mistake to ct all of that at once.
Being in pain management as well for several years, I just wanted off the stuff, it was all making me sick but the way it was done was torture.
I was then reinstated to a whopping 8 mgs of Klonopin ( dumb dr) and am now reducing that daily.
Best of luck to you,. our bodies have been through the mill being on sooooo nuch harsh medication for so many years, but I can tell ya, it feels great to be off all that other junk, even though I am still suffering from all of the ct.
Please, keep me posted how you are doing.....they wanted to switch me to suboxone or Methadone but I ended up in that detox center so I didn't know how easy the subox is to taper.......
My prayers are with you!
Love, Karen |
Edited by - kattklaws on 06/01/2010 11:17:14 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 02:03:26 AM
|
Hi Karen,
Thank you for your kind words and caring. I wish you the best too, sounds like you have had a tough time of it. I bet the ct was REALLY tough with so many meds, especially opiates soma and benzo -- I can relate exactly to those meds!
I have been on sub for 5 months and will take another month to taper before I jump. After all I have learned now, sub should only be used for about 4 weeks max and at a low dose, like starting with 2 mg, then if that does not hold, take another 2 mg, but not 8 16 or 24 mg which the doctors insist. Then say, from 2 mg for a few days, drop by .2 mg every 4 to 7 days while listening to your body until you are at .2 mg daily; then skip days and then jump. It gets REALLY hard, harder than opiates if you stay on it for over a month. And the doctors have people on sub for years at high doses like 8 mg or 12 or 16 mg!! The doctors just don't understand how hard it is to get off sub and I believe it should never be used for long term maintenance, only for short term taper. I call it mild misery now, especially under 2 mg -- but the worst is yet to come....
Thanks again, and my prayers are with you too!
Binky
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
kattklaws
Administrator
372 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 3:40:49 PM
|
Lord no, suboxone is NOT for long term use. My gosh, when they do this to people, they are just switching one drug for another. I couldn't believe they wanted to move me over to Methadone! That stuff is supposed to be a nightmareto get off of( not that klonopin isn't) but I am glad in retrospect that I was cold turkeyed off of the opiates and soma instead of being put on the Methadone road.
Why do dr's think sub is an "answer" to opiate wd???? All it is, is just a different drug to wd from. I have seen sites where people have been on sub for years and years and they think they are "clean"........they have no idea because their dr's are so stupid.
Keep me posted how you are doing.......
love and prayers to ya,
Karen |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 1:40:00 PM
|
Jana, or anyone else,
I am having trouble sleeping. I get 4 to 5 hours max and wake up many times. I have stabilized on 15 mg V, 5 mg 3 x daily. I have nixed soma and cut down on buspar from 60 mg to 30 mg. I am reducing from 2 mg subutex daily by .2 mg each week. Now down to .4 mg. Valerian seems to make me sleepy and help, but not more than 5 hours sleep. Benadryl makes me very groggy in the morning. My sleep gets less and less as I drop on the sub. I lose about 1 hour for every .2 mg I taper. Should be off in about two weeks and then the REAL fun starts. Any suggestions on sleep? Is seroquel overkill?
Thanks,
Binky |
| Report to Moderator |
|
| Information in this forum is not monitored or provided by a medical professional. The information reflects member opinions only. Do not act on advice from these forums without first consulting a qualified medical professional. All content is copyrighted and protected by Aelius Group. |
|
kattklaws
Administrator
372 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 5:36:29 PM
|
Binky,
As someone who didn't sleep for 9 months except for an hour here and an hour there, I thought I would go bazerk!
Let me tell you, Soma is the devil in disguise, dr's do not tell us how awful that drug is and how it makes it IMPOSSIBLE to sleep once you ditch it. I had been on it over 5 yrs in Pain Management. I have been off it for 16 months, but it took a long time for sleep to come back. Even when I was put on the horrible dose of 8mgs of Klonopin I could not sleep!
This is what I use.....Doxylamine( the "other" unisom), and I alternate it with the diphenhydramine Unisom. I usually do a 3 month switch so not to get tolerant to a certain chemical and then it won't make you sleepy anymore.
Along with one of those, I take 3/250mgs of Magnesium, 12.5 mgs of trazadone, a quarter of a mg of pure Melatonin and I take Skelaxin, a muscle relaxer.
A little of a lot goes a looooooong way. I now go right to sleep as soon as I shut my eyes and sleep very well.
I have a damaged jaw muscle so I have to take some kind of muscle relaxer and Skelaxin is not at all like Soma.
If you take ANY prescription to sleep, I would only touch Trazadone, and as small as you can. They like to bang you with like 300-600mgs of it, but I am only using 12.5mgts! I got a 50 mg script and cut a pill into quarters to see how little I needed. You can always increase it a little til you find it helps you sleep, also if you eat some carbs when you take it, it will knock you out.
Trazadone is an old class anti-deprssant, it is not in any of the new and dangerous classes. It is in a class by itself and unless you are taking a dose of 300+ mgs it has no anti-depressant effects. it is used just for sleep.
But a small dose like 12.5 mgs or 25 mgs is just a drop in the bucket and may add great rest, especially if you combine it with little things like small amounts of pure Melatonin and some Magnesium.
Seroquel, I would RUN from! It is an anti-psychotic and it is way too new for any dr to know what that junk is going to do to you down the road. They handed that out like candy at the detox center I was in.........I refused to take and would not take anything except for Benedryl.
The morning grogginess is worth it to be taking something that you know is not going to hurt you and you can just stop it without tapering off of it,
Oh,also, Atarax, another antihistimine, which is used off label for anxiety is a great sedating one. They give it to babies with colic and it is a very old drug so you have the benefit of knowing it is safe.
Best of luck to you........
Prayers,
Karen |
Edited by - kattklaws on 06/11/2010 5:45:00 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 09:42:09 AM
|
Hi Karen,
Wow, I never realized soma was that bad, although I recently found out that it magnifies most anything you take along with it. I was on it for six years, 350 mg 6 x per day for lower back spasms, L45S1 and both facet joints, along with the opiates, as many as 120 oxy and 120 mg hydro per day and up to 40 mg valium per day. Now that I have nixed the somas and the opiates except the subutex (down to .2 mg per day!!) and tramadol (down to 50 mg per day) but my sleep is severely disturbed.
I've never heard of any of the meds on your post except Benadryl which helped me last nite as I didn't wake up for two hours at 1:30 am like the nite before and didn't wake up ever hour for a half hour or so. I know my sleep will get worse though after jumping off opiates entirely. I plan to review these meds with my doc soon. Thanks so much!! And NO seroquel for me, you scared the pants off me!
I am very concerned about my benzo taper and how it may interfere or prolong WD from opiates as I taper. I am still at 5 mg V 3 x per day. I will drop 2.5 mg soon. Would morning, afternoon, or evening dose be best to reduce from? I cut the blues in half to get 5 mg and will cut the halves into quarters to get 2.5 mg.
Thanks again for your caring and advise!
Binky |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
kattklaws
Administrator
372 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2010 : 12:46:49 AM
|
Binky,
Are you talking about you take 5 mgs of Valium 3x a day or a total of 5mgs?
You cannot drop to 2.5ngs, that is WAY to big of a cut and you will get yourself into a heep of trouble if you do so.
Whenever you are going to make a cut you make your pills into liquid form and take the cut out of the whole amount and then divide your leftover liqiud into 3 or 4 evenly spaced doses. You NEVER just cut one dose down. You have to keep your blood plasma levels equal and steady without any yoyo effect.
Don't worry about the opiate wd effecting the benzo wd. I am living through it and so can you..........I am SOOOOO happy to be off those stupid opiates and that soma..........Gosh, I would have never gone that route had I known what was down the road..........
All the meds I mentioned, Trazadon, Atarax and Skelaxin are all very mild meds. The Melatonin is just something you buy at Walmart as is Unisom, both the diphenhydramine one and the doxylamine......
Hope this helps ya,
Love and blessings ,
Karen
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
binky
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2010 : 01:28:32 AM
|
Hi Karen,
I am taking a total of 15 mgs of Valium per day. I take 5 mg of Valium 3 times a day. I want to start reducing to 12.5 mg. I am not sure if I should reduce the morning dose, or the afternoon dose or the evening dose from 5 mg to 2.5 mg. Also not sure if I should start reducing now or wait until I am over the acute opiate withdrawal from the sub in 3 weeks.
I have the blue 10 mg tablets, so I break them in half to get to 5 mg. I will break a half in half to get to 2.5 mg. Do you think this would be sufficient?
Thanks for the info on the sleep meds, I'll give them a try.
Thanks again!
Binky |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
All Forums
Newbie tapering off benzo (and sub)
New Topic
Topic Locked
Printer Friendly
