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Jana
Administrator
1547 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2010 : 6:32:56 PM
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Hi Binky,
A Valium cut of 2.5mg is far bigger than the old cut and suffer way that caused so much trouble.
I really believe that you should not discontinue two drugs at the same time. When handling antidepressants plus benzos, the benzo comes first to preserve the benzo metabolism. When pain meds are the other drug, I an not sure.
Here are some things to consider. The GABA receptor is surrounded by "rings" for accepting alcohol and opiates. Benzos potentiate GABA. They make a little GABA work better. This opens the chloride channel to allow Cl ions in. This modulates ther neuroexcitors and re;axes us. Alcohol is absorbed by a ring that also opens the Cl channel. Opiates also do this. So I reason that if alcohol or opiates are serving to open the channel, the body will have no reason to upregulate the GABA system. This would amount to not healing. For this reason I would drop opiates before benzos.
Do other pain meds do this? I am unsure. I'll look further. For now count on using a Valium liquid for small decreases. I like the Roxane Rx liquid.
I used that. I began it at 15.0mgs just as you are doing. So I have my own log to guide you.
I'll have to PM you later.
Jana
Jana |
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kattklaws
Administrator
370 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2010 : 9:08:11 PM
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I was just going to second what Jana said..........there is NO way to make a cut of 2.5mgs of Valium, just no way..........that is usually more than most people do in a month! You will go into a suffering in which you will not believe even exists in this world and it can become intolerable.
Get rid of the suboxone first, get that nasty stuff away, I did opiate wd before benzo and am ok.......But you will have to make very tiny Valium cuts either way because that receptor is in non functioning, you have banged it with opiates, suboxone, Soma and a benzo.........I did the same, minus the Suboxone. It is a loooong road, but one that must be traveled to get well.
I cannot stress enough the importance of making small, even, daily cuts when it comes to your Valium, it is NOTHING like opiate withdrawal, benzo withdrawal will bring you to your knees if you make a cut that big or even a hair too big.
We will get you there, but you are gonna have to accept that you maybe looking at 2 years to get off all this.............but if you do it right you will not suffer, if you want to do it the hurry up and get off way, the suffering will be more than one can handle.
My prayers are with you and please stay in touch since we have the same background with drugs used...........
Bless you,
Karen |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2010 : 02:06:20 AM
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Jana, Karen,
You are freaking me out. I have been on 20 mg per day of Valium for a couple years. I was up to 40 mg per day for a couple months. I went down to 20 mg a few months ago and then to 15 mg a month ago. Is there any concern I should go back up to 20 mg per day?
I have nixed the soma, and working on nixing the suboxone and tramadol over next two weeks.
I will see my doctor on thursday and will ask about the Roxane liquid. I hope there is no alcohol in it as I have not had any alcohol in just over 20 years as I am an alcoholic and will not take any alcohol. I have taken Valium as prescribed for GAD and opiates as prescribed for chronic back pain which I am managing now with exercise and motrin. I want to get off all this stuff, but I am willing to do a long benzo taper if that will do less harm. I need to start looking for work and right now, I am in no shape to interview. I am lethargic, have memory losses, tire very easily, out of breath and in general in mild misery. I wonder how much can be attributed to the Valium reductions versus the opiate / suboxone taper...
Please help me understand where I should be at on daily valium per info in first paragraph above and I'll need your help on a valium taper plan after I wd from the sub and trammies.
Thanks so much, you are both a gift from my HP.
Binky |
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Jana
Administrator
1547 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2010 : 10:28:07 AM
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Hi Binky,
We don't mean to freak you out. The proper withdrawal can prevent the problems that we hear about on the internet.
The Rx liquid contains 19% alcohol. Don't worry. You can use homogenized milk to make your benzo liquid. Most of us at BDR do that for fast soluble benzos.The Roxasne diazepam liquid is just convenient lit isn't essential.
I am speaking outside of my experience when I talk about Suboxone and Soma. I have found some information about their metabolism but not enough. I know nothing about how to discontinue these drugs.
I do know benzos. I went through unnecessary hell before finding how to do this safely. Our goal is to cause no withdrawal symptoms. Those who plan before tapering can do that. The rest of us must endure some symptoms but these will fade as the taper progresses.
I know that this is not what is being said in general internet talk, but this is our members' experience. So do not be afraid. You can manage your own condition.
I began using my own method while in heavy withdrawal. The available medical methods had made the withdrawal worse. Even then, my condition responded in a day. It wasn't a big earth-shaking improvement, but it was there. It increased with time. By my last month, the withdrawal syndrome was essentially over. I felt warmer than normal, and my BP was still high. I had occasional mild myoclonic jerking. However, the horror was over never to return.
Jana |
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kattklaws
Administrator
370 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2010 : 8:47:18 PM
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Oh Binky,
I am so sorry, I did not mean to freak you out at all! I would never do that to someone intentionally.
What worried you so much? Please let me know and I will clarify.
You were probably able to play with your valium dose so easily because of being on Soma. Soma has a benzo/narcotic property. It also potentiates ANY other drug you take so it enhanced the Valium you were using.
Also, suboxone, being such a strong chemical( that fills up your opiate receptor) helped as well. Being that these drugs are going to be gone now and that receptor will be screaming for them, you must take great care once you are down to just the benzo, so that you can come off this all without horrible withdrawal symptoms . As long as you follow what we do here, you WILL be ok and get off everything and go on.
Again, I am sorry I freaked you out..............
Love and prayers,
Karen |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2010 : 02:58:42 AM
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Jana, Karen,
I know neither one of you is trying to freak me out, you both are so wonderfully helpful. What I freaked out about was that Karen said there is no way I should take a 2.5 mg drop in valium, and I have gone from 20 mg to 40 mg to 30 mg to 20 mg to 15 mg in just a few months -- that's taking drops of 10 mg and 5 mg per month or week. I wonder if I have tapered up and down from 40 mg per day too fast. I have been on 20 mg for the longest and dropped to 15 a month ago. Should I stay at 15 or go up to 20 or something else? I have been feeling pretty bad for months and not sure if its the suboxone taper or the benzo taper. Jana, your explanation makes sense that I was able to make these drastic adjustments because basically my brain was whacked out with suboxone and lots of somas and trammies. I am still wondering if I should go back up to 20 mg V then taper down from there or stick with 15 mg for now...
I will be off everything except the benzo in 2-3 weeks if all goes well. I have received lots of advise from ODR on the sub taper, so I am ok with that plan, though it is not fun and will get much worse. I am so glad I finally got off the soma!!!
Thanks again, what a blessing you both are!
Binky
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Jana
Administrator
1547 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2010 : 10:01:35 AM
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Hi Binky,
I think that you are correct, The Suboxone et cetera very likely protected you from the symptoms of those bug benzo drops. However, I am unsure of the wisdom of returning to s higher dose.
Here's why, and Karen will verify this. Increasing the dose can actually cause worsening symptoms. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it isn't rare either.
On the other hand, starting a taper with an adequate dose is a necessity. So this will be a bit tricky. If the other drugs are altering the benzo syndrome, how would anyone know?
About the only choice is to start eliminating the Sub etc. and be looking for increased benzo symptoms. Then this would tell you that it is time for a modest increase in benzo dose to be adjusted later. The big increases are to be avoided. Everything should be changed in gradual steps. A benzo-compromised body tends to react strongly to major changes. I have no citation for that idea. It just happens too often to be ignored.
Now the nutrition status is another factor that should be addressed. Not everyone will tolerate the usual nutrients. Drug use of any kind over time tends to produce problematic nutrition problems. What helped me most were whey protein, omega-3-fatty acids, and plain barley grass powder. These should be started gradually over a couple of weeks. This makes you much stronger and able to weather the rigors of withdrawals.
I do agree that your former individual dosage cuts are herculean. Your monthly drops should be more like two to three mgs Valium per month. However they should be made in many, many small steps.
Jana |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2010 : 3:54:55 PM
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Jana,
Thanks, now I understand what Karen was saying. I can't reduce by 2.5 mg overnight, but I can reduce by that amount over the course of a month or two via "...many, many small steps." Thanks for the clarification -- my head has been a bit muddled. I think I will stay at 15 mg daily and will be in touch once I nix the suboxone and tramadol and go through the withdrawal from that before I taper on the valium.
Thanks for the info on the nutrients, I will look for those.
Thanks again!
Binky |
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kattklaws
Administrator
370 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2010 : 5:43:43 PM
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Glad that was clarified for you binky.
Yes, you can cut 2.5mgs of Valium per month, but a bit every day so you total MONTHLY cut would be the total of 2.5.
Once you get off everything and only have the benzo to do, you may feel like total poo, but updosing can be a disaster. For me, any updose, even as small as .2 of a ml is enough to make me to sick too function. Your body starts to recognize it as a toxin and treats it as such and adding more just adds fuel to the fire.
My prayers are with you, ditch that junk, you can do it and then we will all be here to root you on through the Valium titration.......
Sorry again.
Love, Karen |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2010 : 10:14:11 PM
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Hi Karen,
Oh, don't be sorry, I was just confounded by the way Valium works and how a taper must be done to avoid the worst withdrawals. I thank you and Jana so much for helping me understand this harsh reality and to help me avoid the worse withdrawals from it. The doctor tells me nothing of the sort and I know he's wrong / ignorant. I am feeling pretty bad but I am certainly not bed ridden so that is good. I'll start skipping days from the sub soon and hope to make it to the other side by around the end of the month or perhaps through the 4th of July.
Thanks again Karen, you're a godsend.
All the best to you!
Binky |
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kattklaws
Administrator
370 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 12:26:11 AM
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Binky,
I am just glad you found "us" and are smart enough to know that your dr is ignorant, they would kill us with their idea of how to get off benzos.
Keep in close contact and we will all get through this with each other and the Lord;s mercy on us as we do this...........
Love ya Binky,
Karen |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 8:54:08 PM
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Hi Karen,
I saw the dr. today and picked up the following:
Atarax 25 mg
Skelaxin 800 mg
Trazadone 50 mg
I also have lyrica 100 mg and clonidine .1 mg. I am still having major sleep problems, but I know its par for the course. I skipped on the benadryl last nite and took 900 mg valerian and .05 clonidine and slept for 2 hours, awake for 3 hours, then slept 2 more hours. Now that I have these new meds, do you think I should take one of each along with the valerian and benadyrl and just kinda experiment and see what works? Or if you have any suggestions, that'd be great. I know you mentioned cutting the Trazadone into quarters and see what works. I have melatonin too and a few lunesta, but I think the lunesta is pretty strong stuff....
At least I can watch the World Cup games in the morning as they come on starting at 4:30 am!
All the best!!
Binky |
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kattklaws
Administrator
370 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 11:14:59 PM
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Binky,
I am so glad you were able to get all the meds we talked about!
For your first night I would try a Skelaxin, a half mg of Melatonin, 25mgs of trazadone and then you can take 1-4 Atarax pills.....try 2 with the other stuff and see how that goes. Skip the Valerian root tonight.
Give your body a few days of that and see if it get used to that and helps you sleep, if not, then in a few days we can change it around.
NEVER take the Luenesta! it is just like a benzo and you will never heal with that junk and it will damage that receptor so throw that junk away because you will never want to take that junk!
Make sure you don't take benedryl and Atarax together because they are both antihistamines and you don't want to mix those.
If you take the above stuff tonight and you should wake up, you can take another 1-4 Atarax pills as long as it has been 4 hours. It would be great if you could get some good, long sleep. It is key to your healing.
I will pray for sleep for you tonight!
Love and blessings,
Karen |
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Jana
Administrator
1547 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 11:49:28 PM
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'm not hardcore and inflexible about drugs. They should be used in the smallest effective amounts. Everyone should know all about each chosen drug though. As Karen said, you don't want to take two drugs in the same class. This causes the additive effect. In addition, multiple sedating drugs can add up to not waking up. I would keep a log of every dose. When sleep deprived, it's easy to forget what we've taken and then keep taking other sedating drugs in that desperate quest for sleep.
The Atarax can help both sleep and sinus congestion. I like it, but in time it doesn't work as well as it did. This doesn't represent physical dependency. There is nothing to be alarmed about. However, a new sedating antihistamine will have to replace the Atarax. In a few months, it will be effective again.
Clonidine has many good uses. A battery powered blood pressure monitor would be a good idea. You don't want a heart rate to fall too low.
Although Clonidine is not a beta blocker, it affects heart rate. People do vary a lot in their response to medications. Although not exactly the same issue, I can't use beta blockers. Even a quarter dose makes my heart rate fall to dangerously low. My feet swell because this slows down my heart function. This is just one example of unexpected results. We need to know our own bodies.
Trazodone is an old drug. It's effects are well known. It would be my choice too.
You've got some good tools now. I like adding one drug at a time, but I do understand how badly you need some sleep.
Jana |
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binky
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2010 : 12:45:24 AM
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Karen,
Great, thanks, I will try what you suggest tonight and see how I sleep. I have been taking 12 hour sudafed, usually 1/2 a tablet because I am allergic to dust and am almost always congested. I take 1/2 because a whole one makes me jittery and I am jittery enough these days, I don't even drink coffee anymore yet. Any issue with the sudafed in the mix? Its a decongestant and not an antihistamine like benadryl.
Jana,
You're right, I don't want to take like 10 different meds to sleep, but I am anxious to find the right combo that works. If the Atarax works as a decongestant then I won't take the sudafed. I only have 30 Atarax so I may have to talk to the doc about getting more and deal with the insurance company as they now think a 30 day supply is 30 and I will try 2 a nite, at least to start.
I recently bought a battery powered blood pressure monitor to watch my blood pressure and heart rate. I have not taken much clonidine yet, but once I jump from the sub I will likely be taken more of it.
Thanks again so much for your help!!
Binky |
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